From: robhu	Date: November 8th, 2008 01:39 pm (UTC)		(Link)

The wikipedia article makes it unclear to me exactly what Remembrance Day is about.

Is it about remembering the deaths of our armed forces? What about civilians?

I'm unsure about war. Is there such a thing as a just war?

Was the massacre of German civilians by Bomber Command morally justified? I don't know. I find this confusing, and so I feel uneasy about Remembrance Day.

	From: woodpijn	Date: November 8th, 2008 01:58 pm (UTC)		(Link)

I haven't read the Wikipedia article. *goes and does so*

It says it's "a day to commemorate the sacrifices of members of the armed forces and of civilians in times of war" (my italics). Does that answer your question? I'm not sure; I guess "sacrifices" means things they gave up deliberately, up to and including their lives, so perhaps doesn't include civilians (on either side) who got killed by enemy combatants and couldn't do anything about it.

I'm not sure about just war either. I think I'd say there is such a thing as a just war in theory, but few, if any, real wars live up to it.

I don't think any massacre of civilians by armed forces is justified.

But I don't think either of those qualms means I shouldn't wear a poppy to commemorate and express sadness for the troops (and also civilians?) who died.

	From: robhu	Date: November 8th, 2008 02:06 pm (UTC)		(Link)

This seems more authoritative than Wikipedia:

Remembrance Sunday is the day traditionally put aside to remember all those who have given their lives for the peace and freedom we enjoy today. On this day people across the nation pause to reflect on the sacrifices made by our brave Service men and women.

and

Remembrance Day and the Two Minute Silence have been observed since the end of the First World War, but their relevance remains undiminished. When we bow our heads in reflection, we remember those who fought for our freedom during the two World Wars. But we also mourn and honour those who have lost their lives in more recent conflicts. Today, with troops on duty in Iraq, Afghanistan and other trouble spots around the world, Remembrance, and this two minute tribute, are as important as ever.

The Royal Legion site seems vague, but I get the impression the emphasis is on our own armed forces, and it's almost as if more recent times have airbrushed in some mention of people fighting for freedom generally.

I suppose I'd be happy to remember the end of a war, but to remember say the allied soldiers who died but not the axis soldiers (most of whom I'm sure were just following orders like the allied soldiers) I feel uneasy about.

I think it's easy to say that killing civilians is unjustified, but much harder to provide a argument for that position. I doubt such an argument can be made biblically (as I understand it the idea of not killing civilians in war is a fairly recent one). My ESVSB has an article about the theology of war in it. More to the point if killing some of your enemies civilians leads to fewer civilian deaths overall is that not justified? Taking it to extremes - should we not kill 1 civilian rather than allow millions more to die? Also - in the world wars is it obvious who is a civilian? Everyone was involved in the war efforts - producing bombs and bullets and whatnot.

	From: robhu	Date: November 8th, 2008 02:08 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Also - what are we remembering about the people that died? That they died? That they died heroically doing a good thing? What?

I can't see any answers to these questions online.

	From: rochvelleth	Date: November 8th, 2008 04:10 pm (UTC)		(Link)

For me I think a poppy just says 'I'm thinking about the people who have died in service'.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: November 8th, 2008 05:33 pm (UTC)		(Link)

I'll add that to the list of reasons not the read the Guardian then.

Oh, it's already there.

S.

	From: pizza.maircrosoft.com	Date: November 8th, 2008 06:23 pm (UTC)		(Link)

my family used to like to wear a white poppy and a red one. (i say 'used to' because I don't think any of us really bothers any more)

From: (Anonymous)	Date: November 8th, 2008 08:52 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Never got that. Is it like wearing a star of David and a Swastika side by side in the hope they cancel out?

S.

	From: woodpijn	Date: November 8th, 2008 09:23 pm (UTC)		(Link)

That's a bit ... unnecessary.

Which are you equating to which?

I don't think the white poppy is a direct opposite or enemy of the red poppy, just a variation on it. It's like "We agree with some of what you're saying, but we want to change other bits." I'd like to say it's more like a star of David and a cross, except the history hasn't been particularly peaceful between those two either. But something like that.

From: cartesiandaemon	Date: November 9th, 2008 01:22 am (UTC)		(Link)

FWIW, that made great sense to me. I hadn't even seen (I don't think) white poppies before, but to me it seems a nice message of "I don't think red poppies are bad, I just want to stress that wearing a red poppy doesn't make me glorifying war".

	From: ilanin	Date: November 9th, 2008 01:31 am (UTC)		(Link)

I've never seen a white poppy either. But I don't accept your second sentence. If you're equating remembrance with glorification (which you are, to some extent, even in denying it), then you have completely missed the message of the red poppy and shouldn't be wearing it.

	From: scribb1e	Date: November 8th, 2008 06:49 pm (UTC)		(Link)

I'm strongly pacifist, but I (usually) wear a poppy for remembrance, that is to remember the lives that were lost. Queens' used to have a service I went to sometimes in which they read out the names of the people (well, men actually) from Queens' who'd died in the wars. It seems important not to forget.

	From: alextfish	Date: November 8th, 2008 10:42 pm (UTC)		(Link)

I think the principal message of the poppy, as I understand it, is "The sacrifice of so many should not be forgotten". Which is close to your third-from-last option, I suppose.

I checked three checkboxes for what the poppy means - "The wounded and the widows deserve our help", "I am grateful not to be living under Nazi rule" and "We mustn't forget history, or we're doomed to repeat it". All of which are sentiments I can agree with.

And yet. When my office had poppies on the reception desk (with a donation box), I'd use to get one, but primarily because I felt like people would look down on me if I didn't.

And all that is despite having been to Remembrance Day parades for four years as a member of the CCF, and heard and repeated "We will remember them." in a sombre service by Bournemouth War Memorial.

Perhaps I feel that, though the primary message of the poppy is something I can definitely support, there are subtle undertones of some of the other options in your poll, the ones I don't want to be associated with so much.

	From: meirion	Date: November 9th, 2008 07:18 am (UTC)		(Link)

When my office had poppies on the reception desk (with a donation box), I'd use to get one, but primarily because I felt like people would look down on me if I didn't.

Thank you. You have just articulated what it is that I subconsciously felt that made me so uneasy about buying/wearing a red poppy: that it was a symbol of conformity, without which one was likely to be ostracised. I have strongly disliked that sense of coercion of years, and the more so because I am so much of a non-conformist in many ways.

And I think that is the majority of the sentiment I'm trying to express by wearing a white poppy. I'm also, BTW (for the benefit of ilanin who, along with "S" no doubt also despises me now), wearing a white dove I got on Iona last month.

	From: robert_jones	Date: November 8th, 2008 11:54 pm (UTC)		(Link)

You get articles in the Guardian saying that poppies are bad because they glorify war, and we should choose not to wear one, or perhaps wear a white poppy for peace.

I read the Guardian nearly every day, and I don't remember ever having seen an article saying that.

	From: woodpijn	Date: November 9th, 2008 10:00 am (UTC)		(Link)

Last year there were these two. (strapline: "we should all wear white poppies this Remembrance Day.")

The year before there was this, this and this.

From: cartesiandaemon	Date: November 9th, 2008 01:26 am (UTC)		(Link)

Probably the way to see it is to see or imagine how germans would see rememberance day. I think in britain there's a big feeling of "thank god it's over", whereas in germany I expect that too, but to be even more multilayered. I know germany makes a big thing of regretting the bad things on the third reich in the second world war, but I had (or invented) the impression that remembrance day felt a bit a odd.

So I can certainly see how red poppies could be taken the wrong way, although I can't put it into words. But I think the basic message "that was horrible. silence for dead. let's not do it again if we possibly can" is still valid.

I do think I've been seeing poppies less often recently, but I don't know if that's a real change, or if I just socialise with different people.

	From: ilanin	Date: November 9th, 2008 01:54 am (UTC)		(Link)

I have worn a poppy every year that I can remember, and when I walk past a war memorial I stop, read some of the names and think about what they did and why (unless I absolutely have to hurry on, and then I feel very guilty). I have knelt beside the tomb of the Unknown Soldier and cried.

Remembrance is not just for Armistice Day.

The slight problem I have with the poppy as a symbol is that it is too intimately tied in with the First World War's Western Front, Ypres and the Somme and Passchendaele. Those were some of the most senseless deaths in modern warfare, so perhaps it isn't too bad a thing, but as history continues it seems to be increasingly unjust that it focuses on 1914-18 at the expense of 1939-45, 1948-60, 1950-3, 1982, 1990 and 2001-, and the steady trickle of casualties from operations lesser in scale.

	From: railwaymouse	Date: November 9th, 2008 09:18 am (UTC)		(Link)

Other: To show solidarity with soldiers who may be mourning the death of colleagues and to reassure them that, should they also be killed in war, their sacrifice will not be forgotten.

	From: railwaymouse	Date: November 9th, 2008 03:13 pm (UTC)		(Link)

A few more thoughts:

Nat & I were discussing this topic this morning after I'd read this. He feels that he would be pilloried if he didn't wear one (especially to a Remembrance Day service), and so he keeps one from year to year just for that. However, he doesn't like the idea of wearing something that says "Hey, I've given money to charity!" so he won't wear it at any other time.

Out of all the various thoughts above, I find myself very closely in accordance with Ilanin.

This morning, I found myself pondering the huge effort that people had gone to across the country to erect all the war memorials after the First World War, at a time when surely the country was still recovering financially from the war itself. It obviously meant a lot to people that there would be a long-lasting monument to those who had died, to tell future generations about what had happened and those from their area/church/school/company who had done what they could and sadly given their lives in the act.

The sermon this morning concluded that the point of remembering was to be thankful to those who had died for us.

	From: atreic	Date: November 9th, 2008 11:06 pm (UTC)		(Link)

I bought a poppy, because I was going to a wedding with a lot of navel servicemen and I didn't want to be making the statement of not wearing one if it would annoy someone on their wedding day. Then the bride said she didn't want poppies at her wedding (more for aesthetic than political reasons, I think) so I didn't wear it.

There wasn't a tickybox for 'I bought one but didn't wear it' though!

I really need to have a Big Think about what I think about war and what I ought to do on rememberance day because of it. Still, I remembered, and I don't need to wear a poppy to do that...

	From: the_alchemist	Date: November 10th, 2008 12:32 pm (UTC)		(Link)

I plan to write my own lj entry about this, but my main reasons for not wearing a poppy are:

1a)If people really think that giving money to help British ex-servicefolks is somehow better than than using it on more cost-effective ways of saving or improving lives, then that's their business. I disagree, and my charity budget goes elsewhere.

1b) Furthermore, I strongly believe The British Legion is a charity like any other. It's not OK to get all incensed when you're treated like any other charity,* or to pressure people to give to you when they have sensible reasons for choosing other charities instead. I don't assume that anyone not wearing a 'make poverty history' is pro-poverty: poppy-wearers are unreasonable to assume something parallel about non-poppy-wearers.

2) It's also not OK to make assumptions about why people choose to join the armed forces, or what motivates them. All the 'bravely gave their life' gubbins makes me sick to the stomach. People join up for all kinds of reasons, including all the wonderful noble, idealistic ones, but also including selfish, cowardly ones; neutral ones and - in the vast majority of cases, I suspect - a complicated mixture of all three. The rhetoric surrounding Rememberance Day feels dehumanising to me.



* I can't find it now, but last year there was a newspaper article in which a poppy seller got all cross because a station chose a different charity to be allowed to collect there one November, and I've seen others where they get angry because places with a blanket rule against charity collectors don't make an exception for them.

	From: robhu	Date: November 11th, 2008 05:45 pm (UTC)		(Link)

I found the White Poppies for Peace website via steerpikelet's post on Armistice day.

	From: robhu	Date: November 11th, 2008 05:54 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Also: BBC: Church attacked over remembrance

From: (Anonymous)	Date: November 11th, 2008 07:41 pm (UTC)		(Link)

I wish people wouldn't give Ekklesia the oxygen of publicity that they so desperately crave.

S.